Once Civilization That Shows Change of Continuity

February 25, 2010,05:57 PM

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

lol, actually ShiJi (written in Han) used earlier written books like Shujing (

6th century BC

), GuoYu (

4th

century BC), ChunQiu (

2nd century BC

) and other primary sources. But most critically, Sima Qian had access to oracle bones (

1000BC or earlier

).

"the discovery of oracle bones at an excavation of the Shang Dynasty capital at Anyang (Yinxu) matched twenty-three of the thirty Shang kings that Sima listed. Needham writes that this remarkable archaeological find proves that Sima Qian "did have fairly reliable materials at his disposal�a fact which underlines once more the deep historical-mindedness of the Chinese."[2]"

One fair point is that human understanding of the world was very limited back then and Sima Qian was already remarkable in using these primary sources and first hand documents. He was truly a professional historian by the highest standard at the time.

Oracle bones might still use during Han Dynasty, hence I don't find it surprised the Sima Qian knew those, especially many oracle bones were used for royal fortune telling and were preserved.

Either way, Sima Qian's role in Chinese history was exactly like Herodotus in Greek history - opened up a professional method to exam and record history. Unfortunately some of unique features of Sima Qian's style did not preserve, such as strict neutral view. That was largely because Chinese history was for royal family and moral education, hence could not give a neutral view most time. Still, Sima Qian gave Chinese a good example how history should be studied, and his writing also give modern scholars some ideas about the culture of his time.

February 25, 2010,06:00 PM

Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post

Oracle bones might still use during Han Dynasty, hence I don't find it surprised the Sima Qian knew those, especially many oracle bones were used for royal fortune telling and were preserved.

Either way, Sima Qian's role in Chinese history was exactly like Herodotus in Greek history - opened up a professional method to exam and record history. Unfortunately some of unique features of Sima Qian's style did not preserve, such as strict neutral view.

well that might be explained by that fact that his wee-wee was cut off so he was indeed totally "neutral".

Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post

That was largely because Chinese history was for royal family and moral education, hence could not give a neutral view most time. Still, Sima Qian gave Chinese a good example how history should be studied, and his writing also give modern scholars some ideas about the culture of his time.

well the good part for chinese history is that for most periods, more than one source survived. If one historian is biased, we have other sources to compare. Then later scholars also liked to write commentary, edits and additions to old writings. Studying Three Kingdom era history is especially fun in this regard because multiple sources survived and we could compare and figured out the bias existed (inevitable pretty much) among historians who had different views on many things.

(and i feel Chen Shou was just as good a historian btw)

February 25, 2010,06:02 PM

Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post

Oracle bones might still use during Han Dynasty, hence I don't find it surprised the Sima Qian knew those, especially many oracle bones were used for royal fortune telling and were preserved.

Either way, Sima Qian's role in Chinese history was exactly like Herodotus in Greek history - opened up a professional method to exam and record history. Unfortunately some of unique features of Sima Qian's style did not preserve, such as strict neutral view. That was largely because Chinese history was for royal family and moral education, hence could not give a neutral view most time. Still, Sima Qian gave Chinese a good example how history should be studied, and his writing also give modern scholars some ideas about the culture of his time.

Oracle bones...right. That's history.

Anyway, that's another interesting thing in history. Each successive Dynasty usually tried to put their spin on history. "The failed policies of the former administration..." type deal. But I guess that's universal.

February 25, 2010,06:03 PM

oracle bones had names and years of kings for example...which are invaluable primary sources for people living in Sima Qian era to study things happened centuries ago.

February 25, 2010,06:08 PM

Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post

Oracle bones...right. That's history.

There are two types of Chinese oracle bones - one is truly for religious purpose, and the other is serving as materials for recording. Wood and bomboo also serve same purpose.

February 25, 2010,06:09 PM

Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post

There are two types of Chinese oracle bones - one is truly for religious purpose, and the other is serving as materials for recording. Wood and bomboo also serve same purpose.

W�ng G�ow�i (王國維, 1877-1927), who demonstrated that the chronology of the Shang kings matched that in Sima Qian�s Records of the Historian; Dǒng Zu�bīn (董作賓, 1895-1963), who identified the diviners and established a chronology for the oracle bones as well as numerous other dating criteria; and Gūo M�ru� (郭沫若, 1892-1978).[28]

February 25, 2010,06:11 PM

Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post

There are two types of Chinese oracle bones - one is truly for religious purpose, and the other is serving as materials for recording. Wood and bomboo also serve same purpose.

Yea but at the end of the day they're still talking about the Yellow Emperor who was obviously fictional...or at least much about him is. It's just silly to put so much emphasis on something that was written three thousand years after the facts. That's all.

February 25, 2010,06:16 PM

doesn't change the fact that he did the best with what he got (oracle bones) and aside from the founding myth part (oh let's not forget how romans wrote about their founding...), ShiJi is superbly reliable starting from early Zhou where records became more available for Sima Qian. Chinese history writing actually begins around Spring and Autumn era while dacians were still eating mud in swamps; Sima Qian used sources written in that time.

oh and on yellow emperors and all, Sima Qian used the only source available on such legends, ShiJing and Annals of the Five Emperors, both written during Spring and Autumn. He did take out the three sovereigns portion because he said it was unreliable.

If counting that, that's at least 2000+ years of reliable non-stop written history (taking out the early emperors, Xia, and Shang portions which were quite fuzzy).

February 25, 2010,06:48 PM

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

Um...you have ventured into tracking ancestry here, i am talking about cultural continuation --- carrying cultural achievements over the ages. And i dont think you can reconstruct philosophy, literature and political ideals by dialects along. Could you show me how you can reconstruct plato's work from oral tales?

You're missing the point. Languages do not carry forward by writing alone. I'm not disputing the prestige of written records in the same Classical Language for thousands of years. But if you might have noticed, though prestigious, Classical Chinese is no longer spoken Chinese. Your ramming home the idea that written documents alone is the cornerstone of civilization and what defines it.

Don't patronize me about reconstructing Plato. I'm talking about language evolution and change, which has little to do with folklore. I'm also not saying that spoken language is the pillar of all things, I'm attacking the argument that china has continuity primarily because of the use of a classical and extremely prestigious language has persisted for X number of years. The meanwhile you seem to ignore impact of natural language evolution. (

which is the little thing that allowed Classical Chinese to have its prestige) If we are going on that standard, Classical Chinese will have to share its title.

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

I have asked you how could spoke langauge carry 40-million words writings over the years. Of course it can't. It can carry very little (folklores, music). Without writings, we would know FAR less about romans and greeks, perhaps only where they were from (like you have said), but what about their poetry, philosophy, literature, political ideals and history ?

Believe it or not, if spoken language didn't have the ability to pass on millions of words, we never would have advanced far enough to write. Think about it for a minute.

Think you could refrain from the disrespect spam because I disagree with you?

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

precisely, that's what i want to prove. Without those, their culture has not continued as their distinctive self. You see the importance of writings?

I know the importance of writings. You on the other hand, have put them on a pedestal. If you're going on writings alone, as the basis for the continuity argument, Greek and Latin have been written for as long. Their contemporary civilizations came and went, but left their impact in the form of persistent writings due to the prestige of their language.

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

Thank you. modern Chinese is still a direct evolution of classical chinese. (and classical chinese poems, literature are still widely produced by scholars and it's a high form of art among chinese intellectuals). When highschoolers in your country can pick up latin books written in Rome and read them, we can then compare.

You're welcome. Modern Romance languages are still direct evolutions of Classical Latin. (and Classical Latin poems, literature (addition: science) are still widely produced by scholars and it's a high form of art among Western intellectuals.) High schoolers in my country can pick up Latin books written in any number of European countries over the centuries and can read them. It was required in my high-school.

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

why not? What is there to make them distinctive if they even lose their language? If Chinese civilization lost its written language (written work lost, unable to be translated etc) and have since used latin, then yes, you can make a case that chinese civilization has discontinued.

But Latin has not been lost either... its still very well documented and understood in the Classical form. The nations that inherited Latin still use it's daughter languages. Even Chinese is renowned for its great variation between regional dialects, so much so that they are treated as separate languages by educational institutions.

I can tell you study a lot about China and you're really into it, but if you think Latin or Ancient Greek are forgotten languages that are "unable to be translated", then maybe you should broaden your linguistic horizons a little. Friendly suggestion.

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

I wouldn't say it ended, it sorta merged with the romans. But that's another topic. That's what is unique to civilizations in europe btw. They tend to mix a bit more because of geographical proximity.

Greek civilization didn't attempt to merge with them, vice versa (bit of Latin for you). Languages in Europe are all Indo-European with the exception of Basque, Hungarian and Finnish. There was a branch of Indo-European present in North West China until the 9th century BC actually.

So, if we are saying that they "mixed" due to geographical proximity, well then I'm afraid the Indo-Europeans were primarily only interfering amongst themselves, much like the Chinese, no?

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

Really, show me where in western europe or eastern europe they had NON-STOP Written history in the SAME language for 2000+ years?

Greek has been a prestigious written record for that long, even if it changed, Classical Chinese is no exception to change either.

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

eh... confucianism? I am not saying China is immune to change but its changes largely came from internal evolution because it lacked the dramatic interruptions existed in other civilizations (i.e. aryan and muslim invasions in India, germanic invasions in western europe, muslim and slavic migration in eastern europe, arab invasion to egypt and etc).

I wasn't aware that the Manchurians, Mongolians, Japanese, Koreans and Indians had no proximal impact upon China.

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

i said they never have been ASSIMILATED culturally. Do you know the difference? Mongols ruled China for 98 years. They did not change Chinese culture much. Chinese are not using mongolian writings and live on horse backs today. In fact, 8 million mongols and inner mongolia have completely been sinicized. That is called continuity.

No you literally said that no foreign power dominated them...

Do you know the difference? I didn't say anything about cultural assimilation and now you're freaking out for some reason. But if we want to talk upon foreign yokes:

The German tribes ruled the former Roman territories in the West for hundreds of years, they did not change the Latin based culture in most places. Westerners are not using Gothic or Frankish. In fact, people all over the world have been westernized, thats called continuity?

February 25, 2010,07:06 PM

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

Your ramming home the idea that written documents alone is the cornerstone of civilization and what defines it.

I wouldn't say it is "alone" but it is the MOST IMPORTANT vehicle of (listen carefully here my friend because it is probalby my fault i did not emphasize this) carrying literature, political ideas, rites, philosophy, history and other complex abstract matters forward.

Once again, i ask you to consider if romans did not have writings survived, how much exactly we could remember them for and how could they carry their civilization forward for so long?

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

I know the importance of writings. You on the other hand, have put them on a pedestal. If you're going on writings alone, as the basis for the continuity argument, Greek and Latin have been written for as long. Their contemporary civilizations came and went, but left their impact in the form of persistent writings due to the prestige of their language.

i don't think greco-roman civilizations came and went. Western civilization today is based on them in significant portions especially after renaissance. We were discussing this previously and if you have time you can take a look at those earlier posts.

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

You're welcome. Modern Romance languages are still direct evolutions of Classical Latin. (and Classical Latin poems, literature (addition: science) are still widely produced by scholars and it's a high form of art among Western intellectuals.) High schoolers in my country can pick up Latin books written in any number of European countries over the centuries and can read them. It was required in my high-school.

in latin

?

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

But Latin has not been lost either... its still very well documented and understood in the Classical form. The nations that inherited Latin still use it's daughter languages.

but they are no longer the one written language that dominated the land in the time of Romans. They had fragmented and evolved to the degrees that today's romance language speaking people wouldn't even use the language anymore. At least when they teach chinese, it's still one written language; how many languages are romance language family consisted of exactly?

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

I can tell you study a lot about China and you're really into it, but if you think Latin or Ancient Greek are forgotten languages that are "unable to be translated", then maybe you should broaden your linguistic horizons a little. Friendly suggestion.

no no no i wasn't talking about latin. I was talking about other lost languages in order to highlight the importance on continuation of writing.

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

I wasn't aware that the Manchurians, Mongolians, Japanese, Koreans and Indians had no proximal impact upon China.

Actually for the first four groups, the impact was overwhelmingly on the side of China because of China's size and modern advanced culture for most part of history. Today only a few dozen people even speak manchurians. That's how serious assimilation is. For mongolians, it's even worse. The only way you can tell them on the street apart from Han is checking their ID....For Korea and Japan, it's even more so if you would kindly go to any musuem with their arts, look at their pre-modern art drawings and the words on them, all Chinese. India's contact was limited to buddhism mostly and it had its moments but suffered a fall by the end of Tang, confucianism returned its dominance.

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

The German tribes ruled the former Roman territories in the West for hundreds of years, they did not change the Latin based culture in most places. Westerners are not using Gothic or Frankish.

don't they use germanic languages in many western europe countries? and countries like England brought many new customs (especially common laws) to the land? That was a serious interruption of history in western europe (dark age)

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

Greek has been a prestigious written record for that long, even if it changed, Classical Chinese is no exception to change either.

um...no. They dont have non-stop written history in the fashion of twenty-four histories. Proof?

February 25, 2010,08:14 PM

but I think other civilizations can have the same amount of historical continuity

Well, the topic is the longest continuous civilization.
Probably not. Chinese civilization is characterized by an exceptional cultural cohesion and continuity/longevity.
Enduring caractheristics of Chinese Civilization: Geography/ assimilation of invaders/secular nature of Chinese civilization/Confucianism/civil service recruited by means of public competitive examination that lasted into the twentieth century.
A prety good summary (previous post)
Lecture Notes

people all over the world have been westernized, thats called continuity

In the last few centuries.
Well, Atlantic civilization ("Western civilization") has been spectacular successful in this aspect.
But not everyone beholds the results with equal satisfaction. Gandhi, when asked about what he tought of Western civilization, is said to have replied "It would be a good idea".

In my opinion, the self-confidence of the western civilization is collapsing and is directly proportional to the increasing freedom (and volubility

) of the victims of the Western colonialism. And criticism from within is not limited to the "cynical" left.
Have you read the book Le "Lotus bleu" (french edition),an adventure of Tintin (my favorite)

inspired in the Manchurian incident of 1931?
Well, it includes an episode, set in Sanghai, of a complacent colonialist who prates about the virtues of "notre belle civilisation occidentale", while beating a "dirty chink".
Who knows, the world might turn in someting better.

February 25, 2010,09:07 PM

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

I wouldn't say it is "alone" but it is the MOST IMPORTANT vehicle of (listen carefully here my friend because it is probalby my fault i did not emphasize this) carrying literature, political ideas, rites, philosophy, history and other complex abstract matters forward.

Once again, i ask you to consider if romans did not have writings survived, how much exactly we could remember them for and how could they carry their civilization forward for so long?

Indeed, writings are important, I'm not saying that they aren't. But even without the writing system, lets say hypothetically the Romans would still have a prestigious language and were prone to conquest. Cultural traditions and linguistic characteristics are still going to be passed on regardless of writing.

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

i don't think greco-roman civilizations came and went. Western civilization today is based on them in significant portions especially after renaissance.

But Western civilization is something that is bigger than Greco-Roman civilization, they aren't synonymous. Greco-Roman civilization got the ball rolling, but there were times that it was down for the count in its purest form.

Even the Germanic tribes that overran the Roman Empire, were to a large extent, Romanized foederati themselves.

Despite the downtime, there were still histories, poetry and stories being written in Latin and Greek, on a large scale. Part of the reason for the widespreadness of the Latin alphabet is the prestige of the language and the common knowledge of Latin orthography among many different people. They took what they knew when formulating their own alphabet.

in latin ?

You betcha.

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

but they are no longer the one written language that dominated the land in the time of Romans. They had fragmented and evolved to the degrees that today's romance language speaking people wouldn't even use the language anymore. At least when they teach chinese, it's still one written language; how many languages are romance language family consisted of exactly?

An erroneous comparison. If we cut through all the controversy of dialect vs language, there are about 24 or 25 Romance languages in existence today. I say the comparison is erroneous because the "dialects" of Chinese are only considered dialects for sociological and political reasons. Mandarin and Cantonese for example, are not mutually intelligible. Mutual intelligibility is the measure that real linguists use to classify dialects from languages. Linguistically, spoken Chinese is several languages. Politically, its all the same language.

How many "dialects" are there in spoken Chinese? How many "dialects" existed before the cultural revolution and creation of national myths? i.e. (how much variation has been snuffed out for political reasons over the centuries?)

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

pre-modern art drawings and the words on them, all Chinese. India's contact was limited to buddhism mostly and it had its moments but suffered a fall by the end of Tang, confucianism returned its dominance.

I presume you mean ancient, pre-modern is actually fairly recent...
As for ancient drawings, those are out of the scope of this discussion. Or I would be able to point the Proto-Indo-European period as well.

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

don't they use germanic languages in many western europe countries? and countries like England brought many new customs (especially common laws) to the land? That was a serious interruption of history in western europe (dark age)

Well, French people, speak French. Spanish people speak Spanish. The Italians speak Italian... I think you get it. If we are talking secondary languages then I'm sure I could find you a great number of native speakers of a Chinese language who speak English fluently also.

During that interruption, the language of liturgy, academia, diplomacy and trade was still Latin. Common law is based in part, on Roman law.

Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post

um...no. They dont have non-stop written history in the fashion of twenty-four histories. Proof?

"in the fashion of twenty-four histories", yeah thats important part of the statement. There were dark ages in Chinese history as well. What you are proposing, is that during these "interruptions" Greek died off and no one knew it anymore. When in reality, though Greek works did not come in "the fashion of twenty-four histories" it still came, and there were still works being produced. The western world didn't freeze in time and there were still histories and ecclesiastical works being written, albeit in less of a "twenty-four histories" fashion.

February 25, 2010,09:27 PM

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

Indeed, writings are important, I'm not saying that they aren't. But even without the writing system, lets say hypothetically the Romans would still have a prestigious language and were prone to conquest.

Cultural traditions

and linguistic characteristics are still going to be passed on regardless of writing.

oh really? Maybe what kind of traditions are what we are having a bit of misunderstanding. I mean I certainly don't deny linguistic characteristics (but hey we can always study dead languages' linguistic characteristics too but that doesn't mean they are still continuous civilizations), but cultural traditions? I really really have doubts that epic works that define the wisdom and the brilliance of ancient world could survive based on oral tradition alone . I mean comparing folklores, songs here and there to epic poems, laws, philosophy, history being passed down, which play a vastly greater role in presenting us the outlook of ancient wisdom (and cultural essence if i might say).

Chinese civilization (along with greeks and romans and others) quickly realized this problem and from very start began to even record down folklores.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi_Jing

This might be one of the earliest collection of oral traditions existed among the general public. You see, without writing, even whatever oral tradition had would have trouble to survive...

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

But Western civilization is something that is bigger than Greco-Roman civilization, they aren't synonymous. Greco-Roman civilization got the ball rolling, but there were times that it was down for the count in its purest form.

Even the Germanic tribes that overran the Roman Empire, were to a large extent, Romanized foederati themselves.

Despite the downtime, there were still histories, poetry and stories being written in Latin and Greek, on a large scale. Part of the reason for the widespreadness of the Latin alphabet is the prestige of the language and the common knowledge of Latin orthography among many different people. They took what they knew when formulating their own alphabet.

In this regard I would argue that political fragmentation of europe later on (vs unifications in China in more frequent manner) probably caused the divergence in linguistic traditions (written language specifically). I am not saying which one is superior. But i do see Chinese language today is a lot closer to chinese language 2000 years ago comparing to romance language today to 2000 years ago. The readability of ancient classics among the general population (you can check Cambridge history on China to confirm it) is far greater. I have yet to meet one westerner who can read Latin. I know plenty of Chinese who read ShiJi fluently.

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

An erroneous comparison. If we cut through all the controversy of dialect vs language, there are about 24 or 25 Romance languages in existence today. I say the comparison is erroneous because the "dialects" of Chinese are only considered dialects for sociological and political reasons. Mandarin and Cantonese for example, are not mutually intelligible. Mutual intelligibility is the measure that real linguists use to classify dialects from languages. Linguistically, spoken Chinese is several languages. Politically, its all the same language.

How many "dialects" are there in spoken Chinese? How many "dialects" existed before the cultural revolution and creation of national myths? i.e. (how much variation has been snuffed out for political reasons over the centuries?)

But i see written language as more important. Why? Let me explain. In the ancient world, it is difficult for people to travel around the country much. How did Chinese empires connect the elites across such a giant land? It was through the tool of the UNIFIED written language. How important this tool is cannot be understated in maintaining the survival of Chinese culture. Chinese elites across the land basically studied the same classics, took the same exams and shared a common morality system for an incredibly long period of time. The dominance of confucianism in China is a result of this. Not to mention the widespread reading of classical literature, history and others; there is a reason why history books and literature written so long ago are so ample in China. They were widely read many many centuries ago across the land and it was very difficult for them to get lost. To me, all these showed why dialects did not matter much and the same written language was what defined Chinese civilization for all these years and made them distinctive from others.

(on dialect btw, the difference in dialects might have been exaggerated considering the ease of scholars like Confucius travelling around the land or the ease of officials across the land working together in the center). But whatever on that, with the same writing language, they share far more than a common accent.

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

During that interruption, the language of liturgy, academia, diplomacy and trade was still Latin. Common law is based in part, on Roman law.

Actually no, common law was far more accumulation of english legal traditions than civil law system taking after the romans, the church laws and etc. They have some fundamental differences.
On languages, would you agree that there was a significant fall in latin literature, history, philosophy in western europe during the dark age, especially with the germanic migration that brought their own languages? Today western europe has more than one language families.

that's the influence of an interruption.

Quote Originally Posted by Bleda View Post

"in the fashion of twenty-four histories", yeah thats important part of the statement.

There were dark ages in Chinese history as well.

What you a proposing, is that during these "interruptions" Greek died off and no one knew it anymore. When in reality, though Greek works did not come in "the fashion of twenty-four histories" it still came, and there were still works being produced. The western world didn't freeze in time and there were still histories and ecclesiastical works being written, albeit in less of a "twenty-four histories" fashion.

exactly which period in chinese history was not covered in official written history? I think in 24-histories fashion is a standard that a history is written for a period succeeding the previous era written in the same language and scope. I really really really doubt you can find such continuous history writing anywhere else in the world.

February 25, 2010,10:25 PM

But Latin has not been lost either... its still very well documented and understood in the Classical form. The nations that inherited Latin still use it's daughter languages. Even Chinese is renowned for its great variation between regional dialects, so much so that they are treated as separate languages by educational institutions.

An erroneous comparison. If we cut through all the controversy of dialect vs language, there are about 24 or 25 Romance languages in existence today. I say the comparison is erroneous because the "dialects" of Chinese are only considered dialects for sociological and political reasons. Mandarin and Cantonese for example, are not mutually intelligible. Mutual intelligibility is the measure that real linguists use to classify dialects from languages. Linguistically, spoken Chinese is several languages. Politically, its all the same language.

How many "dialects" are there in spoken Chinese? How many "dialects" existed before the cultural revolution and creation of national myths? i.e. (how much variation has been snuffed out for political reasons over the centuries?)

Exactly what i've been saying. And it's especially pointless to hold up written language as a proof of continuation when most of the people didn't even read. Like wise using a document written in the last century of the BC era that used bones speaking about a mythical god emperor 3,000 years prior is hardly solid proof of anything as well.

February 25, 2010,10:33 PM

1. how could continuity of written language, the vehicle of literature, poetry, philosophy, political thoughts and history, being discounted as proof of continuity? I think this is done because certain pathetic inferior dummies in history couldn't read and write crap and nothing survived so their shamed decedents had to make up excuses like this. I guess romans, greeks' long studied classics don't matter too in their cultural continuation? Then what the hell are historians studying everyday? the accent of people from 2000 years ago? That's cultural essence? That's only culture for the barbaric losers of history like dacians.

2. Shiji's description of pre-Zhou was only a few volumes out of its 130 volumes. Sima Qian wrote it based on whatever primary sources he could get. Discounting Shiji based on such small unavoidable limitations is silly. Should we discount Herodotus' histories as monumental work in western civilization because it had legends and myths too?

the importance of Shiji was it was one of the earliest long written history covering the entire existence of a cultural sphere (like Histories in its scale). Such thing was not done in many places. Certainly not done in piss crappy regions like dacia where people were still dancing like monkeys in trees.

the fact that later historians followed Shiji's tradition to duly record history of china in uninterrupted fashion in the same language and such knowledge are passed down to this day with a large population still reading them demonstrate the continuity of chinese civilization in the most obvious fashion.

Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post

Well, the topic is the longest continuous civilization.
Probably not. Chinese civilization is characterized by an exceptional cultural cohesion and continuity/longevity.
Enduring caractheristics of Chinese Civilization: Geography/ assimilation of invaders/secular nature of Chinese civilization/Confucianism/civil service recruited by means of public competitive examination that lasted into the twentieth century.
A prety good summary (previous post)
Lecture Notes

thanks on the note ludicus.

some key portions:

"Chinese civilization may be the oldest continuous one in world history, and it has a number of enduring characteristics.
1) The uniqueness and distinctiveness of Chinese civilization is due at least in part to geography. It is location at the eastern end of Eurasia and is bounded by mountains, deserts, and steppes. To the north is Siberia, and to the east is the Pacific Ocean.

2) Further characteristic of Chinese civilization has been its ability to have less civilized invaders who then absorbed Chinese culture and the language rather than the other way around, as was frequently the case in India.
3) Also important was the secular nature of Chinese civilization; it never produced a priestly class that had an important political role.
4) In addition, Chinese culture stresses the social rather than the individual life of human beings, thus emphasizing, as we will see in our discussion of Confucianism, the importance of relations between members of a family or between subject and king.
5) Finally, again as we shall see, the Chinese invented (thousands of years before other nations) a unique and stabilizing institution—a civil service recruited by means of public competitive examinations—that lasted into the twentieth century.
Hence, unlike the discontinuities and fragmentation of Indian civilization, Chinese civilization is characterized by cultural as well as political cohesion and continuity."

February 25, 2010,11:55 PM

Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post

Nobody is saying Chinese civilization is continuous but if you're going to agree that those cultural factors continued than the same can be said for all sorts of other civilizations. The Assyrians don't have an Empire anymore for example, but they're still Assyrians. They still have their Assyrian culture and beliefs and identity. Who are you go tell them they aren't that anymore?

the ancient assyrians were absorbed into other emergent cultures; even their descendants (probably iraqis, kurds etc etc) dont use the same philosophy or practice the same cultural beliefs as the ancient assyrians did.

compare and contrast with chinese practices of fortune telling, chinese medicine, taoism, et al

why, it was chinese new yr a few weeks ago;
they still keep the lunar calender, still use chinese astrology, still use chinese euphemisms, still practice the same cultural/spiritual beliefs from as far back as the shang dynasty.

heck, traditional chinese medicine which is still practiced in China/taiwan and is growing in the West, dates back as far as the shang dynasty (~2500BC).

February 26, 2010,12:09 AM

Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post

the ancient assyrians were absorbed into other emergent cultures; even their descendants (probably iraqis, kurds etc etc) dont use the same philosophy or practice the same cultural beliefs as the ancient assyrians did.

let's discuss assyrians in another thread (people there agree with you on this btw).

Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post

compare and contrast with chinese practices of fortune telling, chinese medicine, taoism, et al
.

and many other aspects listed above, not to mention the scale, size and length of chinese civilization. Today over 1 billion people are part of the chinese civilization cultural sphere. How many assyrians exist on earth? The context of continuity is just not the same level.

Once Civilization That Shows Change of Continuity

Re: a continous Chinese civilization?

Re: a continous Chinese civilization?

Re: a continous Chinese civilization?

Re: continuity of the Chinese civilization

Re: a continous Chinese civilization?

Re: a continous Chinese civilization?

Re: a continous Chinese civilization?

Re: continuity of the Chinese civilization

Re: a continous Chinese civilization?

Re: a continous Chinese civilization?

Re: continuity of the Chinese civilization

Re: a continous Chinese civilization?

Re: a continous Chinese civilization?

Re: continuity of the Chinese civilization

Re: continuity of the Chinese civilization

Re: continuity of the Chinese civilization

Re: continuity of the Chinese civilization

Re: continuity of the Chinese civilization

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